JJ Parker: Melissa, have you heard about the restaurant on the moon? 

Melissa Albers: No. 

JJ Parker: It's got great food, 

Melissa Albers: Yeah. 

JJ Parker: atmosphere.

Melissa Albers: Oh my gosh. Boom, boom. You're here till Thursday. Try the veal. Oh 

dad joke. 

JJ Parker: Uh, you know what? You should never do. Never date a tennis player. 

Melissa Albers: Y. 

JJ Parker: Because love nothing to them. 

Melissa Albers: Oh my God. 

JJ Parker: I've got a whole [00:01:00] list 

Melissa Albers: No, no, we're good. 

JJ Parker: Are you sure? Just one more. 

Melissa Albers: Okay. Fine. 

JJ Parker: A Zen student asked his master, is it okay to use email? Yes. Replied the master, but with no attachments. 

Melissa Albers: Okay. That one is 

very funny. 

JJ Parker: you like the Buddhist joke.

Got you. Okay.

Melissa Albers: Well, I just feel like that's the, you know, the cookies are on the second shelf, at least not just sitting 

JJ Parker: Now on. Okay.

Well, today I want to talk about humor. I want to talk about how humor and self-awareness might intermingle 

Melissa Albers: Oh, I love it. I love it. And after the week I've had, it's a great time.

I just feel sad that I didn't have a bunch of jokes. Cause you know, I have a number of incredibly bad jokes that I think are hilarious. And in this moment I can't think of [00:02:00] one. 

JJ Parker: now, of course that's how, that's, how that's, how dad jokes work.

So, uh, just before we hopped on, we're kind of chatting about, about humor. And some of the different aspects 

of it, right? 

Like, obviously I think everyone just generally likes to laugh. Right. We like using humor. We like making each other laugh. We 

like making ourselves laugh. Right? 

Melissa Albers: good to, be happy and laugh. 

JJ Parker: Yeah. Right. It's like a sign of happiness.

So like, I wonder why like laughing and jokes and joking around makes us happy. 

Melissa Albers: Yeah. I don't know. I don't know, but it's, it does. Well, sometimes, usually, 

JJ Parker: Usually

Melissa Albers: I don't know, it just feels good. It's like an emotional release sort of, you know, like you get to laugh and you just feel like this body weight lifting, even if you're, you know, just, [00:03:00] it just feels good. It feels buoyant. 

JJ Parker: Yeah, right. Um, it also feels like it it's like a great way to connect with other people. It's like a good connector thing. Right. When people that, when there's like a jealous. I mean, it certainly, especially like a little inside joke between a couple of 

people, right. It's like, kind of like, you know, this secret little funny thing and you all share it together.

It's a real bonding experience.

Melissa Albers: right. And a lasting experience.

Like it can be something that bonds you together for years. Remember that 

Yeah. Remember that time? 

JJ Parker: thing that happened in high school 

Melissa Albers: exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and I think too, there's a lot of benefit to, um, laughing and humor make someone well, to make someone feel better. Like it's a really big part of healing.

You know, if people suffer physical or things, um, [00:04:00] humor and laughing in a good natured way can be very healing for the human psyche.

JJ Parker: for sure. Like even actually probably one of our very first parenting instinct. Is when our kids are sad or hurt is to try to make them laugh, 

Melissa Albers: right.

Yeah. Tick alum, or do something to distract them with less. 

JJ Parker: Tall, totally 

Melissa Albers: Yeah, it doesn't work very well with adults though. You can actually get and put in prison. If you reach over to somebody 

JJ Parker: tickle your coworkers.

All you didn't make your sales numbers this month. Tickle, tickle, tickle.

Melissa Albers: that's not weird at all. Not at all. Oh. 

JJ Parker: So like so many, I mean, obviously comedy comedians, 

Melissa Albers: Right. 

JJ Parker: whole genre 

Melissa Albers: Yeah. 

JJ Parker: comedic movies and sitcoms and 

Melissa Albers: [00:05:00] Right. 

JJ Parker: We kind of like seek out, 

Melissa Albers: right. 

JJ Parker: laughter and. And that 

Melissa Albers: Yeah. Yeah. And, and, you know, in, in, um, in, just in my life, I absolutely love. Laughing. I think I like laughing more than a lot of people. I know. I making jokes. I, I like that. You know, I just am constantly looking for things that are kind of humorous. And even in my coaching, I use humor a lot in my coaching, 

JJ Parker: Okay. 

Melissa Albers: my coaching. 

JJ Parker: Let's talk specifically about how you would use humor in a situation like that. Because when I, when I think about your coaching, 

right, I mean, this is high end professional level coaching, 

Melissa Albers: Yup. 

JJ Parker: topics. I assume I don't sit in on their coaching 

Melissa Albers: Right? 

JJ Parker: can be pretty serious. I 

Melissa Albers: Yeah. 

JJ Parker: These are people running very large organizations, 

Melissa Albers: Yeah. 

JJ Parker: very [00:06:00] important decisions that affect hundreds of thousands of people. 

Melissa Albers: the time. 

Yeah. 

JJ Parker: and millions of dollars. So, um, how does, how does joking around play into that scenario?

Melissa Albers: Yeah. You know, and I think, uh, it's such a good question. I think that the key is when we sit in our own heads and tell ourselves a story of what's happening, or we feel the weight of having to make heavy decisions, or we feel the weight of making a shift in something that we know is going to be unpopular is scary.

You know, we start to get really heavy about that. It feels really stressful. And a lot of the times when I'm having those kinds of conversations, if I can help someone be slightly disarmed, if I can help them not be quite so serious, then they stay more open. And when you stay more open, you stay more flexible.

And when you stay more flexible, you see more opportunity. So it really is you. I use humor a lot and, and in a very loving. You know, there's [00:07:00] different kinds of humor, which we should talk about. There's we've been talking about all the fun, positive stuff. There are some situations in which humor can be negative, right.

And that is not necessarily what we would want to do. So I'm not talking about that. I'm not talking about sarcasm. I'm not talking about, 

JJ Parker: into that

a little bit. 

Melissa Albers: in that in a bit.

But, but what I was going to say is just being able to disarm someone with not taking themselves or the situation quite as serious. 

JJ Parker: yeah. Yeah. I like using humor as a disarming. 

Melissa Albers: Yes. Yeah. And you do that a lot. You do that a lot. Yeah, you do. It's. 

JJ Parker: Well, right. pardon me, like what I think about that, that disarming technique. Um, what it makes me think of is like, uh, my defense mechanism as like a middle school kid was. Fat, right. Like, I wasn't like [00:08:00] strong or popular. I was like the nerdy kid. So I was able to sorta like use humor as a way to like skate my way through the, you know, 

Melissa Albers: The rat's nest, the, ma the mouse maze. 

JJ Parker: yeah.

Middle school and high school. Um that's so that means I'm good at it.

Melissa Albers: Okay. Okay. I heard that. Okay. I'm I'm validating you. I bet you were so good at it. 

JJ Parker: But using, using humor to disarm, we tried to, I mean, we do that all the time. I see, I see people doing it all the time. Um, and it, and it works well. And you said it makes the other person more open, 

Melissa Albers: Yeah. 

JJ Parker: right? 

Melissa Albers: properly, right?

I mean, there needs to be a level of self-awareness and, emotional intelligence. Um, you know, obviously in that, in the, in this space, right where we're talking. 

JJ Parker: Yep. it's interesting. When we get too much in our heads, we, [00:09:00] we really do start on this path where it's like, everything starts becoming super serious. 

Melissa Albers: Yeah, for sure. 

JJ Parker: everything does, it gets tighter and tighter and tighter. And start, you know, of times like don't make good decisions in that state or your, or you don't see very, at least you don't see very clearly 

Melissa Albers: Right. 

JJ Parker: state.

Melissa Albers: Yeah, exactly. 

JJ Parker: using, using something to open you up to see more clearly and like a tool like humor is a great, is a great way to do it.

Melissa Albers: I remember one time my daughter was in like second grade and she was very, and she still is extremely artistic and she is, uh, can be a bit of a perfectionist and she had to make a post. For something. And you know, this was the, this is the day and age where a lot of parents make posters for their kids.

And sh and I wasn't going to do that because she was way more artistic than me. And she was, 

JJ Parker: Like, like helicopter 

Melissa Albers: yeah, [00:10:00] that happens all the time. Right. That's another whole topic. We'll save that. But I remember specifically. She was really in a snit because the poster did not turn out. Like she had envisioned it and she was really, really upset.

And, um, and she had misspelled the word nose, N O S E. And she was so mad about this poster and I looked at it and then I looked at her and I, I felt my eyes getting kind of big, cause I was like, don't know.

if she sees that misspelling, she's gonna lose it. Right.

And I, I just. I looked at it and I looked at her and I said, and she wasn't in the mood for any jokes.

And we were running out to the, to the bus and I just. Well, can I just give you a little tap your noesis instead of notes? And I was like, okay, That's the closest one. I'm going to get to like making a little joke and like 

JJ Parker: Yup. 

Melissa Albers: is. And she looked at it and we still, sometimes today we'll make jokes about [00:11:00] our noesis instead of our nose.

So, you know, sometimes you can't even with children, um, you'd be able to disarm them enough to not take things quite so seriously and be quite so mad. 

JJ Parker: Yeah. So in a work context, you know, you're talking about, about coaching, right? So you're talking about trying to get your clients to open up and you're using humor as a tool to do that. Using humor and comedy at work in, in like a work environment, I think is really interesting 

Melissa Albers: Yeah. 

JJ Parker: because certainly there's different company cultures and some are going to be much more serious and some are going to be a bit more relaxed.

But what's your experience like? Have you seen. Business cultures that are very kind of like joking, joking around a lot. And, and other cultures that are fairly serious and the IM the employees don't joke with each other.

Melissa Albers: Um, yeah, [00:12:00] absolutely. And it's from the top down, you know, however, the leaders of the organization are that really informs the rest of the organization. What's okay. And those are all unspoken. No. You know, they're 

not posts, they're not poster norms. 

JJ Parker: yeah. It's not like. Yeah, like those 

Melissa Albers: it's 

JJ Parker: The core valley is 

Melissa Albers: Nope. 

JJ Parker: value is our companies joke around all the time. 

Melissa Albers: yeah. Except, you 

JJ Parker: up there. 

Melissa Albers: core values of the authentic leader, one of them 

JJ Parker: Huh? Nice. That's great. 

Melissa Albers: oh my gosh. 15 years ago, maybe even that, that was put down. But yeah, I've seen in many cultures, like. It's interesting. You know, like I think we should talk about the different types of humor at work, because I think 

JJ Parker: Okay. 

Melissa Albers: been talking about like the lighthearted fun ones, also a wide variety of humor in the workplace that actually is not helpful or productive.

So, um, one of the things that I talk a lot with my leaders about in coaching is sarcoma. So a lot of [00:13:00] leaders sort of, um, think that sarcasm makes them look good. You know, sarcasm is an intellectual kind of humor, you know, um, you know, it shows how funny I am, but sarcasm actually is using someone else at someone else's expense to make yourself look better.

And, um, and sarcasm is really, really an uncomfortable thing that has really cutting long-term effects. 

JJ Parker: yeah. Comedy is a very interesting thing like that because it's, it's like right on the edge often. It's right on the edge of being like a pro yeah. Appropriate and inappropriate. And. 

Melissa Albers: sure. 

JJ Parker: artist they're kind of like rides that edge, you know, someone very skilled rides that, that edge and knows when to not cross that line.

Melissa Albers: Right. I think so. I mean, and I think too in the workplace, If you, if you kind of think you're really, really funny and you're [00:14:00] using sarcasm as your tool, I would just recommend that you maybe don't just don't, 

JJ Parker: I just

don't, 

Melissa Albers: don't, 

JJ Parker: that's a, blunt analysis.

Melissa Albers: very blunt analysis, but that's one that I've seen such a long-term, you know, um, and even a little bit of sarcasm because it doesn't, it actually, isn't a reflection on the person that you are giving a hard time to it's a reflection. And people don't realize that they think, oh, I'm making a very specific cutted about Joe Smith. And 

JJ Parker: Yeah. 

Melissa Albers: going to see what I see about Joe, but people just look at you and think, wow, that was uncomfortable. 

JJ Parker: Yeah. Because a lot of, a lot of times we might actually be. Using a joke to, to put someone else down and put someone, make ourselves look better. So, right. That is just more like an ego self-serving kind of thing.

Melissa Albers: Yup. Or you use sarcasm to communicate something that you wanted to communicate, but [00:15:00] you don't feel comfortable enough communicating in honesty. 

JJ Parker: yeah. It's like almost like, uh, sometimes when I see our sarcasm used in that way, I, it, it's more like, Persons like afraid. It's like, uh, I more feel bad for them that they're not able to like really like express their, true thoughts.

Melissa Albers: Yup. Yup. And that's really, really true. I see that a lot in the workplace too, when you see people making sort of sarcastic or dismissive comments, you know, to be funny, dismissive, funny comments, mostly because that person is uncomfortable. You're that's exactly right. Yeah, 

So. 

JJ Parker: there's a, there's that other part that gets that, that gets a kind of a humorous response work that I've seen used where like someone will like take maybe somebody's argument, 

Melissa Albers: Yeah. 

JJ Parker: we're debating someone, someone will take someone's argument and then like blow it ridiculously out of propeller 

Melissa Albers: Yeah, Right. 

JJ Parker: like, oh, well, that's funny. But 

Melissa Albers: Yeah. 

JJ Parker: you know, but you're, you're actually, what you're actually trying [00:16:00] to do is disconnect. 

Melissa Albers: Right. Yeah. 

JJ Parker: So stop doing that because everyone's perspective is valid here, right? Like don't use that as a technique to discredit someone else's idea.

Melissa Albers: And you'll see like certain people that are very shy or introverted may use humor as a way of kind of protecting themselves. Just like you were talking about when you are younger. 

JJ Parker: Tell me more about 

Melissa Albers: Yeah. There's a lot of, by the way, everybody, as soon as he said that he was looking the other direction. So that.

was like his way of saying don't tell me anything about this.

I'll tell you about. But I'm too introverted. So you go ahead. 

JJ Parker: Go ahead.

Melissa Albers: Um, but a lot of people too, you know, especially if they're more introverted or they feel anxious about the topic or they don't, they, you know, usually when someone is using kind of cutting humor, it's normally because, um, the person feels that they're not enough or they're not going to be good enough or they don't, they're not equipped for the topic or what have you.

So a lot of. [00:17:00] More quiet. People will just kind of throw out like one liners or zinger. I call them zingers. Right? It's like, they'll throw out a zinger to either get a little attention. Cause that feels good. Um, or really just in an effort to try to be part of the group without having to expend too much energy and too many words. 

JJ Parker: yeah. Yep. 

Melissa Albers: So,

when you see someone doing that, you know, I always kind of asked myself, oh, that's interesting. I wonder if that person is a more introverted person or if that person 

is working hard to be part of. Group right now. 

JJ Parker: Yeah, that's a great perspective. Like, like as we try to understand other people better using that as one of the clues to white might be happening for, for that, for that individual. I like that. I'm going to start noticing that

Melissa Albers: The other, the other thing too, that

I think is interesting. And you, and I've talked to us a little bit about this, but, um, it's sort of the, self-depreciating like self-deprecating 

JJ Parker: self-deprecating.

Melissa Albers: Yeah. Did I say self-depreciating we should let's get a [00:18:00] t-shirt 

that says that, 

JJ Parker: That's something different.

Melissa Albers: oh, if I'm an account and we're in a 

really bad place in this world, people. Oh, 

um, Yeah. 

JJ Parker: humor. Right? So we kind of put ourselves down. 

Melissa Albers: Right. 

JJ Parker: down, we put ourselves down way or we paint ourselves and like kind of a foolish light 

Melissa Albers: Yeah. 

JJ Parker: to get a lot.

Melissa Albers: right. And I think that, you know, if you do like using humor, that's a much safer style, but there's also an edge on that as well. Right. It's like, um, you know, sometimes when somebody is very confident about what they're doing and they make sort of a self-deprecating comment about their skillset or whatever, it can be very. You know, because the other people are like, oh my gosh, that person is so good at that. Obviously they're just having a little fun here and they feel safe enough in themselves to have fun by saying something like that, you know, like that's really fun. That's a and that is a [00:19:00] very safe 

JJ Parker: Yeah, 

Melissa Albers: lighthearted. 

JJ Parker: though, there is a little bit of nuance in there because have seen highly skilled people 

Melissa Albers: Um, 

JJ Parker: make self-deprecating comments about their skill, but it comes off as arrogant because. 

Melissa Albers: Oh, that's interesting. 

JJ Parker: know what I mean? Like, no, you're so good. Your little joke about how you're bad at this activity is, 

Melissa Albers: Oh, 

interesting. 

JJ Parker: is, is more like a brag to 

Melissa Albers: Oh, That's interesting. Huh? That's interesting. I've never really considered it like that. I think like, um, 

JJ Parker: Well, it happens to me all the time. Cause I'm such a highly skilled individual with self-deprecating humor. That's 

kidding. 

Melissa Albers: oh, you are really well sometimes too. I think that's when you know, isn't that interesting. So when someone does self-deprecating humor, what makes it good and what makes it feel bad? So what you're saying is, is if they go too [00:20:00] far 

JJ Parker: You go too far. 

It's bad. 

Melissa Albers: it makes it look like It's an arrogant statement.

Like they're 

JJ Parker: Yep. Yeah. 

Melissa Albers: seeking. Whereas, um, the kind of the kind of self-deprecating humor I was talking about is, okay, so let's say I'm in a conversation with someone and it's a, an emotional topic of some sort, um, where they're feeling vulnerable. Right. They're having to explain Something and they feel very vulnerable and, um, and they could use an example that is very, very open and, and here they are, right? They're just showing, they're just showing everything to showing all of their true feelings. And, um, and, and we start to discuss that and I respond in kind. So I stay in that same level of openness and trust with them. But then at some point, once you sort of accomplish that goal, how do you get out of that?

How do you get out of that deeper piece? And that's where I might say something. Wow. Well, I am glad that I have never had to, [00:21:00] you know, like I can 

JJ Parker: yeah. Something right? Yeah. 

Melissa Albers: situation a little lighter and take the brunt of that on purpose and in Goodwill. So that, that person feels that emotional shift, like, okay, Melissa's got my back.

She's not going to make me stay here. She's not uncomfortable. Right. She's not uncomfortable. She's comfortable enough with me that she can even make a joke Right. now. And that makes me feel. 

JJ Parker: And, and in a way, like, you'll, you'll take on a little bit of that embarrassment. You'll 

Melissa Albers: Yeah, right. 

JJ Parker: you know, you'll take on a bit of that for the other person. I agree. Like. That kind of self-deprecating humor can be really effective and actually can be really effective in a, in a leadership 

Melissa Albers: Yes. Very, very, 

JJ Parker: it is about trying to support that other person 

Melissa Albers: yeah. 

JJ Parker: that, through those feelings and that th those thoughts that they're 

Melissa Albers: Yeah.

and it does take, I mean, it's like, self-awareness is a really big part of that, you know, because it means, [00:22:00] it means in order to be authentic and to use humor in this way authentically and for the good means that you have to have a level of esteem in yourself.

JJ Parker: Hmm.

Melissa Albers: Right. It means that you have to have a level of, um, self-worth and trust self-trust, 

JJ Parker: Yup. 

Melissa Albers: to do that.

And that comes off like crazy with other people. Right. People can sense when you have that and they trust that. 

JJ Parker: Yeah. 

Melissa Albers: wouldn't think that that was an arrogant piece of somebody came from that perspective. 

JJ Parker: Alright. One more thing about this. Um, I, in my notes, I wrote humor as a shield. I bet you come across us quite a bit. Do you ever come across someone who you're actually, maybe even trying to get to know them or you're actually trying to maybe get. Uh, uh, maybe a little bit deeper of a conversation and they just constantly [00:23:00] keep using humor to deflect anything any attempt to get into a deeper conversation.

Melissa Albers: for sure. I have, for sure. I have, I remember this one. Um, I remember this one time in particular, it was when I was in sales. I was meeting with an owner of a company and we were going somewhere together. Cause he was going to show me a big data center, big data room. And um, he was, he was that. Where he just was a very highly analytical guy.

He kind of fancied himself sort of apart from everyone else. I don't know if it was ego or, or introversion. I don't, I don't really know, but, um, I just kept asking him all these questions, like to try to get to know him. Right. And so we started talking about cars and I said, oh, well, what kind of car do you drive?

You know, just as we were like making comments about vehicles. Cause he had kids, you know, and, and um, said, 

JJ Parker: Y a sticky car.

Melissa Albers: Yeah.

because he had two kids, two [00:24:00] little kids or whatever, 

JJ Parker: Yeah. 

Melissa Albers: didn't even want to, and we were, we were walking to his car. So it wasn't like, you know, I don't know. I don't know. I just remember that particular conversation. Cause every question I ask, he 

JJ Parker: I know you're, you're a sales person. So like at that moment, it's like, your mantra is like comedy is for closers. Like.

Is that a thing I'm going to go to? My sales team comedy is for closers.

Melissa Albers: Uh, 

JJ Parker: Um, good thing. I don't run the sale. 

Melissa Albers: yeah. 

JJ Parker: Well, but as a sales person, part of it is just trying to develop a relationship. You're trying to get to know this person more and get the rapport going right now. And he's absolutely blocking it at every turn using this defense mechanism. 

Melissa Albers: Yeah.

I see that too. I've seen that too. And it is it. Isn't really interesting. Gosh, when you start thinking about how humor is, and you know, we don't have time today, but it would be fun to delve into how [00:25:00] family dynamics create humor as well. You know, I mean, there's a lot of how many times we've been around friends, families that the family.

Such a wonderful sort of cultural norm of being lighthearted and making fun of things. And, and then how many times have you been in part of a family structure where things are pretty darn serious and it's really, really scary walking on eggshells just to like ask to pass the Right. 

JJ Parker: I have observed this behavior, given that I, you know, work with three of the four Elbers.

Melissa Albers: Oh, no, I feel exposed. 

JJ Parker: call it yourself out there,

what it is funny. Cause you know, I think, I don't know if everyone knows, but like both your kids work in 

Melissa Albers: Yup. 

JJ Parker: in my companies. Right. So, um, to come across not every day, but every so often. And they're both so funny. 

Melissa Albers: I know they 

are [00:26:00] 

JJ Parker: And like Megan in particular has got this very, 

Melissa Albers: sharp fast. 

JJ Parker: very like honed in brand of comedy.

It is unbelievable. 

Melissa Albers: I know she does. I know. 

JJ Parker: And she uses it in this work context at like a, mastery 

Melissa Albers: Yeah, can I use it? Can I use an example? She's 

JJ Parker: Absolutely. Let's 

Melissa Albers: probably gonna kill me. She was writing an email to a whole team that she works with. I'm not going to say the team and it's a weekly report that she has to send out.

and she spends a lot of time writing it and she's 100% convinced.

No one really. She's a hundred percent convinced. So her way of dealing with this is to not overtly ask. No, she writes the whole thing and at the very bottom, instead of writing, like thank you, comma, Megan, she writes moist regards, Megan, 

JJ Parker: Just to see if anyone calls her out on 

it. Like none, no one said 

Melissa Albers: And so she nailed them the next morning. She's like, I [00:27:00] busted every one of you. no.

one read that. Who signs anything? Moisturey guards. 

JJ Parker: That's awesome.

Melissa Albers: Oh, dear. 

JJ Parker: Uh, well, this is a fun conversation, 

Melissa Albers: Yeah.

JJ Parker: obviously, 

Melissa Albers: it. 

JJ Parker: uh, we talked a lot about work, but I agree that it would be fun to talk about sort of the norms and in families and how, how families. Use humor. Is that how, how, you know, just individuals like married couples, you know, you'll see, I'll see married couples that use humor and a very specific way that works for 

them. 

Melissa Albers: yeah. Yes. 

JJ Parker: sometimes I think like, well, I could never talk to my wife like that. Right. But they like banter back and forth, whatever. It's fun to watch.

Melissa Albers: so in closing, 

JJ Parker: Who's there 

Melissa Albers: Yoda lady 

JJ Parker: you go to a lady.[00:28:00] 

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